{"id":563,"date":"2006-09-24T23:12:31","date_gmt":"2006-09-24T23:12:31","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml"},"modified":"2021-05-29T02:45:37","modified_gmt":"2021-05-29T02:45:37","slug":"thoughts_on_com","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml","title":{"rendered":"Thoughts on Discipling, Attendance and Dating"},"content":{"rendered":"

Our church leadership is tackling some tough issues. A couple of weeks ago, our minister asked us to put some thought together on what discipling, attendance and dating will look like in our church and have them ready for today’s leaders meeting. The following is what I put together before the meeting and represents both mine and Maria’s thoughts.
\nThoughts on the meeting in the first comment.<\/em>
\nAs we talk as a church about issues that have historically been important to us \u2013 discipling, attendance and dating among others \u2013 I wanted to put my thoughts on paper as I flesh them out.
\nIn general, I feel we must be careful in these and other areas. We must not set up rules or standards for membership in our church that God does not set up for membership in his. It may be tempting to set up rules that are define who we are in the CCOC, rules and practices that define who we are. But who are we to say what is required to be part of God’s family, even a segment of God’s family. We should not risk pushing away one of God’s children for the sake of our comfort in being surrounded by like minded folks.
\nPeter cautioned the early church on the same thing in Acts 15 concerning circumcision & following the law when he said “why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” So as we consider discipling, attendance and dating , we must be careful not to add our “rules of men” to God’s standard.
\nI think that discipling is the most important of the three. How we implement and practice discipling has an effect on the other two. As I look at the scriptures, I don’t see a requirement for discipling as we’ve practiced it, organized, assigned. Instead, I see an emphasis on loving each other and watching out for each other.
\nDiscipling should be ‘top down’ not ‘bottom up’. In the past we emphasized the need for individuals to seek advice and discipling for themselves, even correcting them when they did not. I call this the ‘bottom up’ style. You are responsible for yourself and shame on you if you don’t get the help you need. Instead, we should emphasize & model leaders & others proactively getting involved in the lives of others, asking questions, seeking understanding and teaching and caring. I see this ‘top down’ style being more biblical.
\nEzekiel 34 is a great example of this. God is not angry with the sheep who went astray, he’s angry at the shepherds who did not go after them. Our old model would have been the leaders chastising the lost sheep.
\nJohn 10 tells us how Jesus is the good shepherd, because he lays his life down for the sheep. In fact, Jesus came because he saw our need, a need we did not recognize. We, in our sin and pride, didn’t think we needed saving. But Jesus saw us wandering off and came to our rescue, dying on the cross. He is our example and that should be our standard for discipling, selfless, sacrificing, humble and loving yet firm with high expectations.
\nAll the ‘one another’ verses are examples of this as well. They are proactive, born of love and concern for the other. I would say the whole of the New Testament cries for us to “consider others better than [ourselves]” (Philippians 2:3) and to focus ourselves on others. This should be the heart of our discipling and the focus of our teaching and practicing of it. When we see something of concern in our brother or sister, our first response should be trust (Love always trusts – 1 Corinthians 13). Trust that they love God and long to please him, possible evidence to the contrary aside. With trust in our hearts, we can, and should, then go and ask questions, seek to understand what’s going on. Often times, things are not quite what they seem. Only then, with a full understanding of the situation and trust in our hearts, can we lovingly challenge, if there is a need.
\nWe should also stop making what seems like the opposite mistake, but is really as much a lack of love as the sometimes harsh, critical judgments of the past were. That is seeing areas of concern in our brother and doing nothing. It’s not my place, someone else will talk to him, maybe I don’t understand, he probably doesn’t want me involved. We cannot expect to build on our successes as a church this year if we have such a cavalier attitude toward each other.
\nThis must stop, but mandatory discipling trees or groups are not the answer. As I said, I do not see any requirement for organized discipling in the scriptures, only the requirement that we love deeply, to the point of putting ourselves at risk. So as we seek to retain the good things that the old ways brought, let’s not be tempted to go back to the one size fits all system. In fact, I’d say we ought not to require any sort of system at all. Instead, as leaders, we ought to require sincere, deep, vulnerable and sacrificial love, and we must model that within ourselves and our groups.
\nOn the other two issues, I think if we love deeply and practice discipling as described above, they will fix themselves. A pattern of absence may be a look at a heart grown cold, of hidden sin or a drifting from God. Or it may be that Wednesday night is the only time to take that class required to graduate, or a temporary transfer to the weekend shift while a co-worker is on maternity leave. Only by loving enough to trust and to dig in and ask question will we know for sure, and be able to help restore a wandering soul if need be.
\nOn dating I do have a bit more to say. The question I would ask is, is dating, even marrying, someone who is not a Christian something that we would disfellowship someone for? Asked another way, would someone be forfeiting their salvation by marrying a non-believer? We certainly don’t turn away married folk if only one of them comes to church. I absolutely believe that we should teach the folly of pursuing a relationship of any kind with the opposite sex who is not a Christian, but as I said before, we must be careful not to add rules to God’s. If someone who loves God, foolishly does this and even ends up married to that person, they need us more than ever at that point. They ought to know, that we still stand by them as they strive to follow Christ, assuming that’s what they still want.
\nOn dating, I think it’s time we took a more mature approach to this. We are a small church, it is foolish for us to teach our singles that they must only date within our own fellowship, or our sister churches in other cities. We should instead teach discernment in dating. How can I tell if this person is spiritual and is going to lead me toward God instead of away? We should also, cautiously, begin to find ways to work with other, historically similar, churches in or area to help these men and women find mates that will strengthen them. There are attractive men and women around them in their neighborhoods, the campus and their workplaces, longing for their attention. They need to know how to discern, how to chose whom they should and should not date.
\nI hope that as a church we can act in faith. It takes more faith to resist establishing rules and requirements and to allow people to work out their salvation. Rules only serve to make us feel comfortable, but for the sake of our comfort we can exclude those that God has accepted. Let us not do that.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Our church leadership is tackling some tough issues. A couple of weeks ago, our minister asked us to put some thought together on what discipling, attendance and dating will lookRead More Thoughts on Discipling, Attendance and Dating<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[2],"tags":[],"yoast_head":"\nThoughts on Discipling, Attendance and Dating - salguod.net<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Thoughts on Discipling, Attendance and Dating - salguod.net\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Our church leadership is tackling some tough issues. A couple of weeks ago, our minister asked us to put some thought together on what discipling, attendance and dating will lookRead More Thoughts on Discipling, Attendance and Dating\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"salguod.net\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2006-09-24T23:12:31+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2021-05-29T02:45:37+00:00\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Doug Schaefer\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:creator\" content=\"@salguod\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Doug Schaefer\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"7 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml\",\"name\":\"Thoughts on Discipling, Attendance and Dating - salguod.net\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2006-09-24T23:12:31+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2021-05-29T02:45:37+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#\/schema\/person\/2237e297e41300051087d8791343043f\"},\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Thoughts on Discipling, Attendance and Dating\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/\",\"name\":\"salguod.net\",\"description\":\"Stuff I Think Up\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#\/schema\/person\/2237e297e41300051087d8791343043f\",\"name\":\"Doug Schaefer\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/d8dde291ac4514740353f4bb9cbd9418?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/d8dde291ac4514740353f4bb9cbd9418?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Doug Schaefer\"},\"sameAs\":[\"http:\/\/salguod.net\",\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/salguod\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/author\/salguod\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Thoughts on Discipling, Attendance and Dating - salguod.net","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Thoughts on Discipling, Attendance and Dating - salguod.net","og_description":"Our church leadership is tackling some tough issues. A couple of weeks ago, our minister asked us to put some thought together on what discipling, attendance and dating will lookRead More Thoughts on Discipling, Attendance and Dating","og_url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml","og_site_name":"salguod.net","article_published_time":"2006-09-24T23:12:31+00:00","article_modified_time":"2021-05-29T02:45:37+00:00","author":"Doug Schaefer","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_creator":"@salguod","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Doug Schaefer","Est. reading time":"7 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml","url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml","name":"Thoughts on Discipling, Attendance and Dating - salguod.net","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#website"},"datePublished":"2006-09-24T23:12:31+00:00","dateModified":"2021-05-29T02:45:37+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#\/schema\/person\/2237e297e41300051087d8791343043f"},"breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/09\/thoughts_on_com.shtml#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Thoughts on Discipling, Attendance and Dating"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#website","url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/","name":"salguod.net","description":"Stuff I Think Up","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#\/schema\/person\/2237e297e41300051087d8791343043f","name":"Doug Schaefer","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/d8dde291ac4514740353f4bb9cbd9418?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/d8dde291ac4514740353f4bb9cbd9418?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Doug Schaefer"},"sameAs":["http:\/\/salguod.net","https:\/\/twitter.com\/salguod"],"url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/author\/salguod"}]}},"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":430,"url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/01\/discipling.shtml","url_meta":{"origin":563,"position":0},"title":"Ramblings on Discipling","author":"Doug Schaefer","date":"January 9, 2006","format":false,"excerpt":"Discipling is on my mind today. There's been some talk about it around ICOC sites lately. Of course, Mr. McKean has been on his discipling rant for a while (well, since 1979 actually) decrying all these \"lukewarm\" churches abandoning \"God's requirement of discipling\". (He likes to use quotes a lot\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "God and Church"","block_context":{"text":"God and Church","link":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/god-and-church"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":375,"url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2005\/08\/sigh_part_ii.shtml","url_meta":{"origin":563,"position":1},"title":"[Sigh – Part II]","author":"Doug Schaefer","date":"August 29, 2005","format":false,"excerpt":"While I don't think it's a direct response to Kip's 'Portland Story', this was posted on Saturday from the LA ICoC. (BTW - You can follow some of the news on Kip's 'calling of the remnant' and the fallout and responses at both the suddenly renewed, 'outsider' run icocnews and\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "God and Church"","block_context":{"text":"God and Church","link":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/god-and-church"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":169,"url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/07\/questions_on_fu.shtml","url_meta":{"origin":563,"position":2},"title":"Questions on Fundamentals I","author":"Doug Schaefer","date":"July 15, 2004","format":false,"excerpt":"VirusDoc asks some good questions in the comments of my previous post. Rather than answering them there, I felt that they were worthy of their own post(s). Because I can't seem to write short posts, I'll answer them over the next few postings. I'll start with #4: Why do _you_\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "God and Church"","block_context":{"text":"God and Church","link":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/god-and-church"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":205,"url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/relationship_fa.shtml","url_meta":{"origin":563,"position":3},"title":"Relationship Failure","author":"Doug Schaefer","date":"October 5, 2004","format":false,"excerpt":"I had a discouraging discussion with a friend this evening. He and his wife had been fairly close to my wife and I a couple of years ago. We were involved in their lives pretty deeply at that time. Back when our church had assigned 'discipling' relationships, we 'discipled' them.\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "God and Church"","block_context":{"text":"God and Church","link":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/god-and-church"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":161,"url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/06\/why_defining_fu.shtml","url_meta":{"origin":563,"position":4},"title":"Why Defining Fundamentals is Important to Me.","author":"Doug Schaefer","date":"June 27, 2004","format":false,"excerpt":"It's been a while since I started a discussion on Christian fundamentals. It's time I got back to it. Check out the begining post as well as this one about the real Jesus and this one about defining fundamental. So why do I feel the need to go down this\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "God and Church"","block_context":{"text":"God and Church","link":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/god-and-church"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":737,"url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2007\/10\/dan_on_discipli.shtml","url_meta":{"origin":563,"position":5},"title":"Dan on Discipling","author":"Doug Schaefer","date":"October 31, 2007","format":false,"excerpt":"Dan Edelen writes on discipling, pointing out that it's in God's time, not ours, that He makes things beautiful: I don't know how many times I've seen a \"discipler\"\u2014typically loaded down with one agenda after another\u2014run roughshod over a \"disciplee.\" I've lost track of how many people have walked away\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "BlogWalking"","block_context":{"text":"BlogWalking","link":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/blogwalking"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]}],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/563"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=563"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/563\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":1710,"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/563\/revisions\/1710"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=563"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=563"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=563"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}