{"id":218,"date":"2004-10-27T23:52:45","date_gmt":"2004-10-27T23:52:45","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml"},"modified":"2021-05-29T02:48:40","modified_gmt":"2021-05-29T02:48:40","slug":"a_small_step_cl","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml","title":{"rendered":"A Small Step Closer to Calvinism?"},"content":{"rendered":"

Over the past months I’ve had an on again off again conversation with Jared<\/a> about Calvinism and free will. Jared is an unapologetic Calvinist. I, frankly, had no idea what that meant until recently, and even now I’m not entirely sure. But thanks to Jared’s patience in answering, probably, the same question repeatedly, I’m getting there. I am still a long way away from being a Calvinist, and probably never will be entirely, but I’m finding that it is not nearly as far fetched as it seemed a few months ago. (BTW – The Calvinist belief can be summed up with the acronym TULIP. There’s an explanation of TULIP here<\/a>.)
\nMy debate with Jared began in the comments thread here<\/a>. Jared had taken offense at another’s claim to sovereignty over his own life. I had written a paper<\/a> on God’s putting us in control and I commented that I felt that God has given man sovereignty over his own life. (that paper has seemed incomplete ever since it was completed. There’s more to the story, but I haven’t been inspired to go back and dig into it yet. As Jared pointed out, it’s a little too ‘Deist’) A very civil conversation ensued about all things Calvin but settled down to the idea of free will or not. Jared made his points, I tried to provide examples in scripture of free will and then Jared said <\/p>\n

Salguod, I’m not sure if you haven’t made it through my previous comments yet, but I have specifically said several times that I don’t deny the reality of the will or the reality of man’s choosing.
\nAll you’ve done with these references is provide examples of man making choices or the call to man to make a choice. I have never denied any of those things.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

If I wasn’t already confused, that did it for me. A will that is not fee? Choices but not freedom? How can this be? I attempted to understand his position, but couldn’t get it.
\nThen, a few days ago he posts A Will Conformed to Reality<\/a> in which he makes the argument that it is our role to change our will to match God’s. I let it sit for a couple of day, but couldn’t take it any longer. So I asked <\/p>\n

How does this idea of conforming our will to God’s square with your position that we have no free will of our own? If God’s in control of all and directing all, how can we say to have conformed our will to His, as you suggest here?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

So Jared graciously explains it to me one more time<\/i> and this time it clicks and I respond:<\/p>\n

So the idea then is that we seem to have free will before we are saved, but in reality we cannot help but to sin. It (perfection or ‘being good’) is an ideal that is a lie for we are powerless to achieve it. We are perhaps more or less successful than our neighbor, but ultimately sinful beyond our control. It is only because God has given us grace in Christ that we have a chance to be saved from this depravity.
\nSo the lack of free will is not an inability to make any<\/i> choice, but rather a limitation on making all the right<\/i> choices. Our freedom is limited by our tendency to sin.\n<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

It turns out that this Calvinist idea of no free will isn’t as wacky as it might seem. In fact, it makes perfect sense.
\nJared, you’ve still got a long way to go on original sin and predestination, though.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Over the past months I’ve had an on again off again conversation with Jared about Calvinism and free will. Jared is an unapologetic Calvinist. I, frankly, had no idea whatRead More A Small Step Closer to Calvinism?<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[2],"tags":[],"yoast_head":"\nA Small Step Closer to Calvinism? - salguod.net<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"A Small Step Closer to Calvinism? - salguod.net\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Over the past months I’ve had an on again off again conversation with Jared about Calvinism and free will. Jared is an unapologetic Calvinist. I, frankly, had no idea whatRead More A Small Step Closer to Calvinism?\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"salguod.net\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2004-10-27T23:52:45+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2021-05-29T02:48:40+00:00\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Doug Schaefer\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:creator\" content=\"@salguod\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Doug Schaefer\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"3 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml\",\"name\":\"A Small Step Closer to Calvinism? - salguod.net\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2004-10-27T23:52:45+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2021-05-29T02:48:40+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#\/schema\/person\/2237e297e41300051087d8791343043f\"},\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"A Small Step Closer to Calvinism?\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/\",\"name\":\"salguod.net\",\"description\":\"Stuff I Think Up\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#\/schema\/person\/2237e297e41300051087d8791343043f\",\"name\":\"Doug Schaefer\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/d8dde291ac4514740353f4bb9cbd9418?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/d8dde291ac4514740353f4bb9cbd9418?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Doug Schaefer\"},\"sameAs\":[\"http:\/\/salguod.net\",\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/salguod\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/author\/salguod\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"A Small Step Closer to Calvinism? - salguod.net","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"A Small Step Closer to Calvinism? - salguod.net","og_description":"Over the past months I’ve had an on again off again conversation with Jared about Calvinism and free will. Jared is an unapologetic Calvinist. I, frankly, had no idea whatRead More A Small Step Closer to Calvinism?","og_url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml","og_site_name":"salguod.net","article_published_time":"2004-10-27T23:52:45+00:00","article_modified_time":"2021-05-29T02:48:40+00:00","author":"Doug Schaefer","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_creator":"@salguod","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Doug Schaefer","Est. reading time":"3 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml","url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml","name":"A Small Step Closer to Calvinism? - salguod.net","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#website"},"datePublished":"2004-10-27T23:52:45+00:00","dateModified":"2021-05-29T02:48:40+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#\/schema\/person\/2237e297e41300051087d8791343043f"},"breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2004\/10\/a_small_step_cl.shtml#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"A Small Step Closer to Calvinism?"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#website","url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/","name":"salguod.net","description":"Stuff I Think Up","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#\/schema\/person\/2237e297e41300051087d8791343043f","name":"Doug Schaefer","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/d8dde291ac4514740353f4bb9cbd9418?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/d8dde291ac4514740353f4bb9cbd9418?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Doug Schaefer"},"sameAs":["http:\/\/salguod.net","https:\/\/twitter.com\/salguod"],"url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/author\/salguod"}]}},"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":678,"url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2007\/05\/trust.shtml","url_meta":{"origin":218,"position":0},"title":"Trust","author":"Doug Schaefer","date":"May 18, 2007","format":false,"excerpt":"In the middle of a much longer and thoughtful post on trust, Jared at the Thinklings wrote this: Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. This conviction of things not seen isn't just about trusting God to use our mess\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "God and Church"","block_context":{"text":"God and Church","link":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/god-and-church"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":961,"url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2009\/08\/a_place_where_i_can_stand.shtml","url_meta":{"origin":218,"position":1},"title":"A Place Where I can Stand","author":"Doug Schaefer","date":"August 20, 2009","format":false,"excerpt":"If you haven't read my prior post on Romans 9, you should do so for back ground on this. To say that Romans 9 threw me for a loop is accurate, I'd guess, but not exactly fair to Romans. There was this pondering in the far back reaches of my\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "God and Church"","block_context":{"text":"God and Church","link":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/god-and-church"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":322,"url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2005\/05\/blogroll_update.shtml","url_meta":{"origin":218,"position":2},"title":"Blogroll Update","author":"Doug Schaefer","date":"May 4, 2005","format":false,"excerpt":"I've streamlined the Blogroll a bit. It was time to prune as a few sites have gone inactive for various reasons. Requiest has given up on blogging. He's an infrequent commenter here as 'Rong'. Jared, of Thinklings fame, suspended his blogging on April 1st (we all thought it was an\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Salguod.net stuff"","block_context":{"text":"Salguod.net stuff","link":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/salguod-net-stuff"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":445,"url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2006\/02\/romans_9.shtml","url_meta":{"origin":218,"position":3},"title":"Romans 9","author":"Doug Schaefer","date":"February 11, 2006","format":false,"excerpt":"Romans 9:3 - I cannot imagine saying this. I guess I can imagine the longing to have those you love know what you know, but to wish to be cut off? Romans 9:13 - Was this God speaking about Jacob and Esau? Did God say he hated Esau? Romans 9:14-24\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Quiet Time Journal"","block_context":{"text":"Quiet Time Journal","link":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/quiet-time-journal"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":1016,"url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2010\/02\/abide_is_coming.shtml","url_meta":{"origin":218,"position":4},"title":"Abide is Coming","author":"Doug Schaefer","date":"February 17, 2010","format":false,"excerpt":"Abide from Threads on Vimeo. Jared Wilson, long time blogger, recent author of the excellent Your Jesus is Too Safe and often quotes here, has a new Bible study resource coming April 1st called Abide: Practicing the Rhythms of the Kingdom in a Consumer Culture, from Threads media. I'm really\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "God and Church"","block_context":{"text":"God and Church","link":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/god-and-church"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":1133,"url":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/2012\/07\/joy_runs_deep.shtml","url_meta":{"origin":218,"position":5},"title":"Joy Runs Deep","author":"Doug Schaefer","date":"July 24, 2012","format":false,"excerpt":"Jared Wilson talks about how the expanse of the Gospel is far bigger than anything we know, bigger than our traditions and expectations. It bursts forth, requiring us to change our ways of thinking and our expectatuions. And it's founded, at least in part, on the joy of 'God with\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "BlogWalking"","block_context":{"text":"BlogWalking","link":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/blogwalking"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]}],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/218"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=218"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/218\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":2054,"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/218\/revisions\/2054"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=218"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=218"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/salguod.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=218"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}